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welcome to skeptica where we explore

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controversial science with leading

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researchers thinkers and their critics

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i'm your host alex sicaris and on this

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episode of skeptico

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well we have an episode about skeptico

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now i don't do many shows about the show

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in fact i don't think i've ever done one

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but i know from my own experience of

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visiting other podcasts you sometimes

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need an entry point into what the show

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is all about or it winds up sounding a

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lot like inside baseball kind of that is

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techy talk with a lot of acronyms and

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abstract references to material that's

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been covered in previous shows that you

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never quite get like i said i've been

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there enough times to realize that that

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can be on one hand kind of exhilarating

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to dip into a different world but also

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kind of frustrating to not really know

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what people are talking about

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so i don't know why i think now at

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episode 229 is the right time to do it

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but

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i just kind of felt like it was and i

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wanted to lay out for you if i could the

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five things

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you need to know about skeptico and i

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think this would apply to you if you're

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a new listener or you may even find it

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somewhat interesting if you've been with

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the skeptico show for a while so let's

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get right to it the first thing you

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should know about skeptico is that i

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approach skeptico as my personal journey

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towards answering the biggest questions

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about life who are we why are we here

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and most importantly how should i live

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my life based on those questions so i

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try and wrap skeptico in a nice itunes

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interview wordpress format that

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hopefully you find accessible and

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enjoyable and entertaining but at the

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end of the day that dressing up is

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mainly so that i can keep talking to the

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people i want to talk to which of course

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includes you and that's also why you'll

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never see any advertisements on skeptico

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you'll never hear me ask for any

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donations or anything like that the show

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is really about my personal journey i'm

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not trying to get anywhere with it i'm

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not trying to advance any cause run for

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office create a name for myself or

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anything else i just want to do my best

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to answer these questions and along the

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way share my journey with everyone else

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point number two the second thing you

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should know about skeptico is that the

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show is about following the data

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wherever it leads

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or at least it started out that way but

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let me not digress into that for a

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minute the point i want to make here is

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that when i started out i had this idea

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that if i wanted to find out about this

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stuff even this really big stuff like

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questions about who am i then i could

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just go out and find the data i could go

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talk to the very best experts i could go

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then talk to critics of those experts

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and then critics of those critics i

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could follow the data wherever it led

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and i would get to some sort of answer

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and to a certain extent that works but

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now back to my little digression because

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i have to tell you that in the process

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of doing that following the data

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wherever it leads i came to the

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realization that it's not just about the

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data it's about all the other stuff

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and this has turned out to be a really

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important part of my little skeptico

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journey here because it opened me up to

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two things one that people can have

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worldview differences that dramatically

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alter their ability to objectively look

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at data

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and number two it pushed me beyond that

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to then ask the question of whether or

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not that process of worldview formation

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is always under our control or whether

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there are other

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influencers that are trying to

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manipulate our worldview it's a topic

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that i've returned to several times

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because it does seem to keep popping up

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so this idea that it's not just about

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the data it's about all the other stuff

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has been a reoccurring theme on skeptico

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but i want to play for you a clip from

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an episode of skeptico that i think for

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me was really the turning point in this

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understanding and it had to do with this

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series of interviews that i did with

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science writer and skeptic ben radford

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about psychic detectives so i have an

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extended clip here from episode 151 of

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skeptico that i think sums up what i'm

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talking about here goes so here's the

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situation

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we interviewed psychic nancy webber

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about the work she did associated with

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the murder

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in new jersey and you can go back and

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listen to all these interviews i'll

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provide links in the show notes here and

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you can really dig into this the

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fascinating case i think but for the

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purposes of this show i'm going to keep

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it really brief and here's the interview

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that ben did

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with nancy

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concerning the information that she

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provided to the police

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yeah and what what specifically in a

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nutshell did you did you tell uh

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celebration did you give more views

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about uh hopkins killer sure

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i saw a tall a fairly tall maybe 510 511

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slim built man aqualin kind of shaped

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face

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and i saw a lot of dark hair on his head

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and then i saw the hair being taken off

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almost like a wig and it would be a buzz

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cut with a very high widow's peak i kept

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saying that and then i got the name

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james

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as i was writing and then i got that he

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knew the hollow in morristown which is a

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particular area in morristown as we were

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riding around i also

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smelled gasoline smelled an auto shop or

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gasoline station

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and i knew he was associated then i got

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the word brother

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so to me his brother had either owned

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work

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at a station and the car that james

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would be driving would have that

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then i got polish and i connected that

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as polish descent

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that took me to florida for some reason

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where i fell in prison and i felt him

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being locked away in prison for murder

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and um and i remember saying to them oh

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my god

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he was in florida in jail for murder

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not one

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and they let him out and and you know as

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i'm saying it i'm getting it i don't

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know if that makes any sense to anybody

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but i didn't know it as and then said it

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i'd be just

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letting the words spill out and i'd go

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they released him those idiots

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okay now first let me tell you big

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picture the police consistently still to

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this day say that nancy provided

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valuable information and that her

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information was amazingly accurate they

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said that to me they said that to the

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original tv show they did they said that

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to ben radford but in ben radford's

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debunking exercise what he attempted to

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do was focus on some

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inconsistencies what he thought were

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inconsistencies so i'm going to play you

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again one little clip out of there that

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he focused in on okay and that has to do

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with her saying that the murderer had

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gone to florida and was incarcerated

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down there and then was released let me

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play that for you again right now

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and i remember saying to them oh my god

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he was in florida in jail for murder

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okay so ben couldn't refute the fact

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that nancy's information was amazing and

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the police thought it was amazing and

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thought it was accurate and after the

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fact it all matched up and all that so

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what he focused on was this little point

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and he said in our interview in the

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interview with me he said hey you know

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what

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those cops told me

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that she didn't say that he came from

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florida just that he came from the south

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and i said well ben that's not correct i

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have it right here i have the transcript

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of the interview that i did with captain

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moore and he was insistent and finally i

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said ben let's get him on the phone and

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we called him and got him on the phone

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and here's what captain moore said

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jim hi captain moore this is alex

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sakaris again from skeptico and i have

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uh ben radford from the skeptical

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inquirer on the line hey there how you

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doing hey so as i was explaining ben and

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i had an interesting chat with nancy

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this morning then we got off the phone

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and we started arguing like we do

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we do that

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but you know ben has some potential

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inconsistencies he sees between

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the account that you gave to me and the

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account that you gave to him we thought

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the easiest way to clear that up was to

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get you on the phone for just a few

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minutes and i'm going to let ben take

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over go ahead ben

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um

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you know nancy claimed that she

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specified the the hoffman's killer had

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come from florida but both you and

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hughes say that you that you recall that

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it wasn't necessarily florida it was

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just in the south do you remember which

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one it was no no i said florida

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she told me that he came he lived in the

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morristown area went to florida

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while he was in florida he killed

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someone went to jail when he was in jail

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he killed an inmate that's what i told

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you and that's what you told me in on my

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interview and i have a transcript of

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that as well

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yeah okay

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if you want to know what nancy said to

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me

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before cadets was arrested

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she told me that he whoever committed

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this crime went to florida and was

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living in florida killed someone went to

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prison in florida and then killed an

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inmate while he was a florida for some

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reason unknown he got out and after he

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got out of prison he came back to the

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morristown area

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okay that's what she told me when i

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first met her and she was

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going through what she could feel or

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sense

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i love that you can kind of hear the

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strain in ben's voice as this veteran

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homicide detective gets in his face and

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says no that's what i told you now get

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it right so then ben and i went a little

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bit further and he said okay well yeah

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what about the other guy lieutenant

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hughes he told me that nancy said that

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the killer came from the south not from

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florida as if that would make much of a

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difference that there's all this amazing

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information and that's the point he

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wants to raise is whether she said

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specifically florida or the south but be

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it as it will that's the discussion we

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got into and again i said no you're

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wrong he said florida

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and he was insistent i said let's get

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him on the phone so we had a conference

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00:10:53,829 --> 00:10:51,680
call we got lieutenant hughes on the

276
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phone here's how that interview went

277
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i'm kind of news hey lieutenant hughes

278
00:10:59,910 --> 00:10:58,480
it's alex secaris again from skeptico

279
00:11:02,630 --> 00:10:59,920
thanks again i'm not going to take too

280
00:11:04,790 --> 00:11:02,640
much time let's turn it over to ben ben

281
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is concerned about some potential

282
00:11:09,269 --> 00:11:07,920
inconsistencies he sees between

283
00:11:11,509 --> 00:11:09,279
the interview you gave with me and the

284
00:11:14,310 --> 00:11:11,519
interview you gave with him so let's let

285
00:11:16,949 --> 00:11:14,320
him kind of take it over okay actually

286
00:11:19,509 --> 00:11:16,959
i'm i'm i'm not that inconsistency i'm

287
00:11:21,910 --> 00:11:19,519
i'm trying to reconcile what nancy said

288
00:11:25,269 --> 00:11:21,920
um this is all regarding the information

289
00:11:26,630 --> 00:11:25,279
that she gave in 82 uh before kadich was

290
00:11:29,269 --> 00:11:26,640
was arrested

291
00:11:31,910 --> 00:11:29,279
um for example she says that she said

292
00:11:34,710 --> 00:11:31,920
specifically that uh that the hopkins

293
00:11:37,509 --> 00:11:34,720
killer come up from florida uh but from

294
00:11:39,110 --> 00:11:37,519
from what you told me and i think also

295
00:11:40,550 --> 00:11:39,120
other places that you said that you

296
00:11:43,110 --> 00:11:40,560
didn't remember her saying physically

297
00:11:45,430 --> 00:11:43,120
florida just in the south is that right

298
00:11:47,110 --> 00:11:45,440
no no no she not

299
00:11:49,910 --> 00:11:47,120
i might have said that but no she knew

300
00:11:52,230 --> 00:11:49,920
that the guy had killed before and that

301
00:11:53,030 --> 00:11:52,240
he had killed in florida

302
00:11:54,389 --> 00:11:53,040
okay

303
00:11:55,829 --> 00:11:54,399
yes

304
00:11:57,590 --> 00:11:55,839
she knew that he had killed before and

305
00:11:59,750 --> 00:11:57,600
that he had killed in florida

306
00:12:00,949 --> 00:11:59,760
okay eddie had done prison time in

307
00:12:02,630 --> 00:12:00,959
florida

308
00:12:04,870 --> 00:12:02,640
okay what you told me was that you said

309
00:12:06,389 --> 00:12:04,880
that he'd uh done time in the south he

310
00:12:08,150 --> 00:12:06,399
said i don't recall her specifically

311
00:12:10,150 --> 00:12:08,160
saying that he'd done time in florida

312
00:12:12,470 --> 00:12:10,160
just that he'd done time in the south

313
00:12:14,710 --> 00:12:12,480
yeah i do remember florida i uh

314
00:12:17,110 --> 00:12:14,720
maybe i was being generic or or whatever

315
00:12:18,949 --> 00:12:17,120
the case might be but i do know that she

316
00:12:21,269 --> 00:12:18,959
said florida

317
00:12:24,150 --> 00:12:21,279
okay so this is case closed no

318
00:12:26,389 --> 00:12:24,160
reasonable person at this point no

319
00:12:28,710 --> 00:12:26,399
reasonable journalist with any kind of

320
00:12:32,389 --> 00:12:28,720
integrity would at this point

321
00:12:34,629 --> 00:12:32,399
still hold on to this issue

322
00:12:37,190 --> 00:12:34,639
well you know what that brings us to

323
00:12:39,670 --> 00:12:37,200
ben's broadcast a couple months later on

324
00:12:41,990 --> 00:12:39,680
michael shermer's skeptical podcast

325
00:12:43,670 --> 00:12:42,000
here's what ben had to say

326
00:12:45,750 --> 00:12:43,680
nancy webber said that she specified

327
00:12:47,750 --> 00:12:45,760
that a hoffman's killer

328
00:12:49,910 --> 00:12:47,760
had served prison time in florida he

329
00:12:51,910 --> 00:12:49,920
said quote he came up from florida where

330
00:12:53,829 --> 00:12:51,920
he'd been in prison for murder well now

331
00:12:55,509 --> 00:12:53,839
this is interesting because that's not

332
00:12:56,710 --> 00:12:55,519
the same story that you hear when you

333
00:12:58,550 --> 00:12:56,720
interview the police officers for

334
00:13:00,949 --> 00:12:58,560
example sergeant hughes told me that

335
00:13:02,790 --> 00:13:00,959
weber only stated the killer quote had

336
00:13:04,870 --> 00:13:02,800
served time in the south

337
00:13:06,470 --> 00:13:04,880
and it's important to to you know to

338
00:13:08,790 --> 00:13:06,480
remember that the way that psychic

339
00:13:10,870 --> 00:13:08,800
detectives appear to be accurate and

340
00:13:11,990 --> 00:13:10,880
appear to have amazing information

341
00:13:17,110 --> 00:13:12,000
is by

342
00:13:19,190 --> 00:13:17,120
specific at the time but is in fact very

343
00:13:20,790 --> 00:13:19,200
general for example psychic detectives

344
00:13:22,949 --> 00:13:20,800
will say well the body will be found

345
00:13:24,550 --> 00:13:22,959
near water so that's a good example of

346
00:13:26,870 --> 00:13:24,560
how something that can seem very

347
00:13:28,710 --> 00:13:26,880
specific is in fact very general and

348
00:13:31,990 --> 00:13:28,720
that's that's exactly the technique that

349
00:13:33,110 --> 00:13:32,000
nancy ever used in this case

350
00:13:33,949 --> 00:13:33,120
so i don't know what do you want to call

351
00:13:35,910 --> 00:13:33,959
that

352
00:13:37,990 --> 00:13:35,920
misrepresentation

353
00:13:39,190 --> 00:13:38,000
misremembering

354
00:13:40,389 --> 00:13:39,200
uh

355
00:13:41,670 --> 00:13:40,399
lie

356
00:13:43,350 --> 00:13:41,680
i don't know what kind of words you want

357
00:13:44,710 --> 00:13:43,360
to throw at it but

358
00:13:49,990 --> 00:13:44,720
it's stunning

359
00:13:52,629 --> 00:13:50,000
stunning if it hasn't happened over and

360
00:13:55,269 --> 00:13:52,639
over and over again on this show and we

361
00:13:57,670 --> 00:13:55,279
have countless examples and all you have

362
00:14:01,110 --> 00:13:57,680
to do is go through the archives and

363
00:14:03,829 --> 00:14:01,120
listen to richard wiseman and listen to

364
00:14:07,189 --> 00:14:03,839
ray hyman and listen even to even

365
00:14:09,350 --> 00:14:07,199
novella listen to james randy all i mean

366
00:14:12,230 --> 00:14:09,360
it's a consistent pattern we can't even

367
00:14:14,310 --> 00:14:12,240
call ben out for being especially over

368
00:14:17,990 --> 00:14:14,320
the top in terms of misreporting this

369
00:14:21,110 --> 00:14:18,000
stuff it has to do with the bias the

370
00:14:22,710 --> 00:14:21,120
world view it clouds their vision and

371
00:14:23,430 --> 00:14:22,720
they're just like

372
00:14:25,590 --> 00:14:23,440
the

373
00:14:28,310 --> 00:14:25,600
fanatical conservative

374
00:14:31,350 --> 00:14:28,320
religious folks that they so despise

375
00:14:34,629 --> 00:14:31,360
that can't get past the obvious problems

376
00:14:37,030 --> 00:14:34,639
in their logic it's the same situation

377
00:14:39,350 --> 00:14:37,040
repeated over and over again

378
00:14:41,910 --> 00:14:39,360
okay so that ends that clip and here's a

379
00:14:44,629 --> 00:14:41,920
case where i started out with the idea

380
00:14:46,310 --> 00:14:44,639
of following the data wherever it leads

381
00:14:49,590 --> 00:14:46,320
and was smacked in the face by the

382
00:14:51,829 --> 00:14:49,600
realization that it's not about the data

383
00:14:53,590 --> 00:14:51,839
it's about all this other stuff that

384
00:14:56,150 --> 00:14:53,600
causes people to have entrenched

385
00:14:58,710 --> 00:14:56,160
worldviews entrenched belief systems and

386
00:15:00,629 --> 00:14:58,720
then fight and resist any change or any

387
00:15:03,110 --> 00:15:00,639
challenge to those

388
00:15:05,430 --> 00:15:03,120
so i guess that rolls right into point

389
00:15:08,629 --> 00:15:05,440
three of what you should know about

390
00:15:12,949 --> 00:15:08,639
skeptico and that is that what i'm

391
00:15:15,750 --> 00:15:12,959
really about is getting past these stuck

392
00:15:18,470 --> 00:15:15,760
on stupid debates as i call them and

393
00:15:21,910 --> 00:15:18,480
then i found turns out to be pretty hard

394
00:15:25,430 --> 00:15:21,920
to do because we are surrounded by and

395
00:15:26,470 --> 00:15:25,440
emeshed in a lot of stuck on stupid

396
00:15:28,790 --> 00:15:26,480
debates

397
00:15:31,350 --> 00:15:28,800
one example of this that we spent a good

398
00:15:33,590 --> 00:15:31,360
deal of time talking about on this show

399
00:15:36,150 --> 00:15:33,600
because in various forms it seemed to

400
00:15:39,350 --> 00:15:36,160
keep popping up again and again

401
00:15:41,990 --> 00:15:39,360
is the do christians or substitute any

402
00:15:46,069 --> 00:15:42,000
religion you like in there know the true

403
00:15:48,710 --> 00:15:46,079
path to god or our atheist right so

404
00:15:51,910 --> 00:15:48,720
there's a good stuck on stupid debate

405
00:15:55,110 --> 00:15:51,920
for you and i say that because as far as

406
00:15:57,749 --> 00:15:55,120
i can tell both sides have some pretty

407
00:16:00,310 --> 00:15:57,759
darn stupid arguments

408
00:16:03,509 --> 00:16:00,320
so i'd like to take a minute and break

409
00:16:05,749 --> 00:16:03,519
down that debate a little bit by playing

410
00:16:09,509 --> 00:16:05,759
a couple of clips from past skeptico

411
00:16:13,590 --> 00:16:09,519
shows so you can see why i think both

412
00:16:16,069 --> 00:16:13,600
sides are stuck on stupid so as an

413
00:16:18,629 --> 00:16:16,079
example of how the christian argument

414
00:16:22,629 --> 00:16:18,639
gets derailed in this way i have an

415
00:16:25,350 --> 00:16:22,639
example from episode 199 of skeptico

416
00:16:27,590 --> 00:16:25,360
when filmmaker chris white joined me to

417
00:16:30,790 --> 00:16:27,600
talk about his popular and very

418
00:16:33,189 --> 00:16:30,800
impressive documentary ancient aliens

419
00:16:36,790 --> 00:16:33,199
debunked so chris who is otherwise a

420
00:16:38,710 --> 00:16:36,800
very smart and capable guy you watch his

421
00:16:40,949 --> 00:16:38,720
documentary it's extremely well

422
00:16:43,110 --> 00:16:40,959
researched well put together well

423
00:16:44,870 --> 00:16:43,120
thought out this is not a dumb guy and

424
00:16:47,269 --> 00:16:44,880
during the interview we talked almost

425
00:16:50,310 --> 00:16:47,279
entirely about his debunking of the

426
00:16:52,710 --> 00:16:50,320
ancient aliens television show but we

427
00:16:55,110 --> 00:16:52,720
did talk about this one hot topic that

428
00:16:57,189 --> 00:16:55,120
jumps up when you talk to chris and that

429
00:17:00,150 --> 00:16:57,199
has to do with some of his beliefs in

430
00:17:02,550 --> 00:17:00,160
terms of christianity and a literal

431
00:17:05,270 --> 00:17:02,560
interpretation of the bible here's a

432
00:17:08,949 --> 00:17:05,280
clip from that show so chris your

433
00:17:11,029 --> 00:17:08,959
christian beliefs have also become a hot

434
00:17:13,590 --> 00:17:11,039
topic of conversation as it relates to

435
00:17:16,949 --> 00:17:13,600
the film again to emphasize to people

436
00:17:19,829 --> 00:17:16,959
this is not a christian oriented film it

437
00:17:23,029 --> 00:17:19,839
isn't making a case it isn't evangelical

438
00:17:25,510 --> 00:17:23,039
in nature but at one point you do

439
00:17:26,949 --> 00:17:25,520
come to talking about the flood

440
00:17:29,830 --> 00:17:26,959
mythology

441
00:17:31,990 --> 00:17:29,840
and you make reference to

442
00:17:34,630 --> 00:17:32,000
the noah's ark and is that being

443
00:17:36,870 --> 00:17:34,640
confirmed by nautical engineers and then

444
00:17:38,789 --> 00:17:36,880
if anyone you're pretty open guy out

445
00:17:40,950 --> 00:17:38,799
there you're very public if anyone just

446
00:17:42,870 --> 00:17:40,960
pursues that at all they find that

447
00:17:43,830 --> 00:17:42,880
you're a pretty darn conservative

448
00:17:44,630 --> 00:17:43,840
christian

449
00:17:46,789 --> 00:17:44,640
and

450
00:17:50,950 --> 00:17:46,799
i guess you're supportive of the idea

451
00:17:52,549 --> 00:17:50,960
that the noah's ark story has a realness

452
00:17:54,630 --> 00:17:52,559
to it and that

453
00:17:56,310 --> 00:17:54,640
and process that i mean

454
00:17:58,230 --> 00:17:56,320
you got to understand right i mean if

455
00:17:59,350 --> 00:17:58,240
people are astounded when they learn

456
00:18:02,150 --> 00:17:59,360
that you think

457
00:18:03,830 --> 00:18:02,160
a 500 year old man built this big boat

458
00:18:06,549 --> 00:18:03,840
loaded it up with all these animals from

459
00:18:08,470 --> 00:18:06,559
around the world and cruised the oceans

460
00:18:10,470 --> 00:18:08,480
for a year it's hard for a lot of people

461
00:18:11,669 --> 00:18:10,480
to swallow that

462
00:18:13,350 --> 00:18:11,679
well i mean certainly we could talk

463
00:18:15,430 --> 00:18:13,360
about noah's ark and that's certainly

464
00:18:17,430 --> 00:18:15,440
something that's come up a lot um you

465
00:18:19,590 --> 00:18:17,440
know the the thing is i think that

466
00:18:21,990 --> 00:18:19,600
there's a lot of general sort of

467
00:18:23,750 --> 00:18:22,000
presuppositions about this and comes

468
00:18:25,830 --> 00:18:23,760
from like sunday school version of

469
00:18:27,990 --> 00:18:25,840
noah's ark and things like that but the

470
00:18:30,070 --> 00:18:28,000
text is actually quite technical about

471
00:18:32,230 --> 00:18:30,080
noah's ark and it explains a lot of

472
00:18:35,750 --> 00:18:32,240
these things that

473
00:18:38,150 --> 00:18:35,760
and i think that the issue is

474
00:18:39,669 --> 00:18:38,160
very defendable there's been a good

475
00:18:41,990 --> 00:18:39,679
paper it's often referenced called the

476
00:18:43,510 --> 00:18:42,000
feasibility study for a lot of things

477
00:18:44,789 --> 00:18:43,520
like that like the different animals how

478
00:18:47,029 --> 00:18:44,799
could you get them on the ark and so on

479
00:18:48,789 --> 00:18:47,039
and so forth and i would actually take i

480
00:18:50,710 --> 00:18:48,799
i would i take a bit different view and

481
00:18:52,630 --> 00:18:50,720
then i don't think uh you gotta work

482
00:18:55,590 --> 00:18:52,640
dinosaurs into the equation like i think

483
00:18:58,150 --> 00:18:55,600
is so often uh an unfortunate thing that

484
00:19:01,510 --> 00:18:58,160
has been a part of the this defense

485
00:19:03,190 --> 00:19:01,520
um but but the point is is that the the

486
00:19:04,789 --> 00:19:03,200
idea is is feasible one of the many

487
00:19:06,310 --> 00:19:04,799
things the bbc article thing did

488
00:19:07,590 --> 00:19:06,320
recently is like you can't build a boat

489
00:19:09,110 --> 00:19:07,600
that big it wouldn't vote that big

490
00:19:11,990 --> 00:19:09,120
because it would just crush under its

491
00:19:14,390 --> 00:19:12,000
weight and you know there's been really

492
00:19:15,909 --> 00:19:14,400
good work done on that uh to essentially

493
00:19:17,510 --> 00:19:15,919
say first of all there isn't anybody

494
00:19:19,029 --> 00:19:17,520
saying that that metal wasn't a part of

495
00:19:21,430 --> 00:19:19,039
this i mean you know even the bible

496
00:19:23,350 --> 00:19:21,440
mentions that metal working uh was

497
00:19:24,549 --> 00:19:23,360
before this and so on

498
00:19:26,070 --> 00:19:24,559
uh

499
00:19:27,510 --> 00:19:26,080
besides you don't even

500
00:19:28,710 --> 00:19:27,520
i could go into the details but i'm not

501
00:19:30,630 --> 00:19:28,720
sure if that's the direction we want to

502
00:19:32,150 --> 00:19:30,640
go here but um

503
00:19:34,789 --> 00:19:32,160
but all these different things about the

504
00:19:36,470 --> 00:19:34,799
ark itself i think have very rational

505
00:19:38,789 --> 00:19:36,480
explanations that if one takes the time

506
00:19:40,230 --> 00:19:38,799
to look into those things

507
00:19:41,990 --> 00:19:40,240
i think that you'll at least come to the

508
00:19:44,070 --> 00:19:42,000
conclusion that hey there is a rational

509
00:19:45,430 --> 00:19:44,080
defense of this

510
00:19:47,590 --> 00:19:45,440
well i don't know about that last part

511
00:19:49,270 --> 00:19:47,600
in terms of rational explanations or not

512
00:19:51,190 --> 00:19:49,280
and i didn't pursue it too far with

513
00:19:53,909 --> 00:19:51,200
chris because it wasn't the main point

514
00:19:57,029 --> 00:19:53,919
of the show but also because these did

515
00:20:00,230 --> 00:19:57,039
noah use nails in the ark debate are the

516
00:20:03,110 --> 00:20:00,240
kind of debates i don't want to have i

517
00:20:05,510 --> 00:20:03,120
mean i guess there are some real

518
00:20:07,029 --> 00:20:05,520
archaeological questions there and i

519
00:20:08,710 --> 00:20:07,039
want to be open to hearing some of that

520
00:20:10,390 --> 00:20:08,720
stuff but it's pretty much in the

521
00:20:13,110 --> 00:20:10,400
shallow end of the pull when it comes to

522
00:20:15,830 --> 00:20:13,120
these who am i questions

523
00:20:18,950 --> 00:20:15,840
but i digress again because to really

524
00:20:21,990 --> 00:20:18,960
understand why i think this is a stuck

525
00:20:24,470 --> 00:20:22,000
on stupid debate we have to look at the

526
00:20:27,350 --> 00:20:24,480
other side of the table who's sitting

527
00:20:30,230 --> 00:20:27,360
across from us and that is the atheist

528
00:20:33,029 --> 00:20:30,240
who's built his house on a very sandy

529
00:20:35,909 --> 00:20:33,039
foundation and that is the belief that

530
00:20:37,909 --> 00:20:35,919
consciousness that is the sum total of

531
00:20:41,190 --> 00:20:37,919
your human experience

532
00:20:44,149 --> 00:20:41,200
consciousness is an illusion created by

533
00:20:46,950 --> 00:20:44,159
a biological robot you of course being

534
00:20:49,590 --> 00:20:46,960
that biological robot now this statement

535
00:20:51,510 --> 00:20:49,600
which i've often repeated on skeptico

536
00:20:54,870 --> 00:20:51,520
but let me break it down for you because

537
00:20:58,070 --> 00:20:54,880
it's really a mashup of two of the most

538
00:21:00,870 --> 00:20:58,080
popular atheist thinkers of our time

539
00:21:03,669 --> 00:21:00,880
that is philosopher dr daniel dennett

540
00:21:07,190 --> 00:21:03,679
who famously said consciousness is an

541
00:21:10,230 --> 00:21:07,200
illusion and dr richard dawkins who of

542
00:21:12,710 --> 00:21:10,240
course said that humans are biological

543
00:21:15,430 --> 00:21:12,720
robots now we've explored at great

544
00:21:18,390 --> 00:21:15,440
length on skeptico how atheists often

545
00:21:21,669 --> 00:21:18,400
like to run from these philosophical

546
00:21:24,549 --> 00:21:21,679
underpinnings that prop up atheism just

547
00:21:27,190 --> 00:21:24,559
like christians like to run from the

548
00:21:30,390 --> 00:21:27,200
literal noah's ark thing but i would

549
00:21:32,630 --> 00:21:30,400
suggest to you this ambivalence this not

550
00:21:35,190 --> 00:21:32,640
knowing whether i should embrace the

551
00:21:37,510 --> 00:21:35,200
core beliefs of my group in this case

552
00:21:40,390 --> 00:21:37,520
embrace consciousness as an illusion

553
00:21:43,430 --> 00:21:40,400
created by biological robots or whether

554
00:21:46,470 --> 00:21:43,440
i should run from it is really at the

555
00:21:49,029 --> 00:21:46,480
core of these stuck on stupid debates

556
00:21:51,430 --> 00:21:49,039
now since i played for you a clip from

557
00:21:54,390 --> 00:21:51,440
conservative christian chris white let

558
00:21:57,510 --> 00:21:54,400
me also play for you a clip from my

559
00:22:00,470 --> 00:21:57,520
recent interview with popular atheist

560
00:22:03,350 --> 00:22:00,480
author and christian debunker john

561
00:22:05,669 --> 00:22:03,360
loftus because i think it demonstrates

562
00:22:07,909 --> 00:22:05,679
the cognitive dissonance that we go

563
00:22:11,029 --> 00:22:07,919
through when we're drawn into these kind

564
00:22:14,149 --> 00:22:11,039
of debates here john and i are talking

565
00:22:17,270 --> 00:22:14,159
about what it means to fully embrace

566
00:22:18,789 --> 00:22:17,280
being a biological robot

567
00:22:21,830 --> 00:22:18,799
we still have these arguments and they

568
00:22:24,230 --> 00:22:21,840
still change minds uh and um

569
00:22:27,430 --> 00:22:24,240
there are no minds there are no minds we

570
00:22:29,270 --> 00:22:27,440
are biological robots i mean look we

571
00:22:32,390 --> 00:22:29,280
can't change brains they're again

572
00:22:34,630 --> 00:22:32,400
they're robotic they just act according

573
00:22:36,950 --> 00:22:34,640
to their preconceived this is ludicrous

574
00:22:38,870 --> 00:22:36,960
like like look i understand where you're

575
00:22:41,110 --> 00:22:38,880
coming from you're focusing on

576
00:22:42,789 --> 00:22:41,120
christianity and debunking christianity

577
00:22:44,710 --> 00:22:42,799
and there's a lot to be done there but i

578
00:22:47,270 --> 00:22:44,720
think you've kind of made my case to a

579
00:22:50,149 --> 00:22:47,280
certain extent this logically it

580
00:22:52,950 --> 00:22:50,159
logically falls apart and moreover like

581
00:22:55,430 --> 00:22:52,960
i always tell people is you know your

582
00:22:57,270 --> 00:22:55,440
philosophy isn't as complicated as it

583
00:23:00,149 --> 00:22:57,280
seems it's how you live your life you

584
00:23:02,710 --> 00:23:00,159
know and a point to me the person who

585
00:23:04,710 --> 00:23:02,720
lives their life like love isn't real

586
00:23:07,190 --> 00:23:04,720
like connection with people isn't real

587
00:23:10,230 --> 00:23:07,200
sure it's just it's silliness it's

588
00:23:12,230 --> 00:23:10,240
absurdity in the same way that that some

589
00:23:15,350 --> 00:23:12,240
of this other stuff

590
00:23:17,830 --> 00:23:15,360
in terms of biblical inerrancy gets into

591
00:23:20,870 --> 00:23:17,840
the absurd really quickly when you

592
00:23:22,470 --> 00:23:20,880
follow it i i'll make an argument that

593
00:23:26,630 --> 00:23:22,480
if that's the case

594
00:23:27,990 --> 00:23:26,640
uh then you know there's simply there's

595
00:23:30,630 --> 00:23:28,000
no other uh

596
00:23:32,230 --> 00:23:30,640
way around uh living our lives like we

597
00:23:34,230 --> 00:23:32,240
do and making the arguments that we do

598
00:23:35,510 --> 00:23:34,240
well but hold on you can cut that short

599
00:23:38,070 --> 00:23:35,520
and just say there's no reason to really

600
00:23:40,549 --> 00:23:38,080
live your life the famous philosopher

601
00:23:44,470 --> 00:23:40,559
albert camus said this you know there's

602
00:23:47,430 --> 00:23:44,480
only one philosophical question suicide

603
00:23:50,390 --> 00:23:47,440
if you really believe that life is that

604
00:23:53,029 --> 00:23:50,400
meaningless there's no need to continue

605
00:23:55,510 --> 00:23:53,039
the meaninglessness there's no need for

606
00:23:57,909 --> 00:23:55,520
future generations or past generations

607
00:23:59,750 --> 00:23:57,919
or evolution it's all meaningless

608
00:24:01,669 --> 00:23:59,760
there's no reason to go on that's a

609
00:24:04,870 --> 00:24:01,679
logical extension here and of course

610
00:24:09,029 --> 00:24:04,880
it's absurd but it's the absurdity the

611
00:24:14,070 --> 00:24:12,630
all i can say is that when we falsify

612
00:24:15,990 --> 00:24:14,080
the idea

613
00:24:18,230 --> 00:24:16,000
that you are this biological robot and

614
00:24:21,350 --> 00:24:18,240
we accept that that's absurd and once we

615
00:24:23,830 --> 00:24:21,360
get past the idea that consciousness

616
00:24:25,750 --> 00:24:23,840
ends at death which is again like you

617
00:24:27,269 --> 00:24:25,760
said before only i don't think you want

618
00:24:29,909 --> 00:24:27,279
to accept it but that's where the

619
00:24:32,870 --> 00:24:29,919
evidence points it just points that way

620
00:24:36,230 --> 00:24:32,880
i don't know what that means john when i

621
00:24:38,870 --> 00:24:36,240
cross that chasm and i say okay that's

622
00:24:40,870 --> 00:24:38,880
the evidence and i have to deal with it

623
00:24:43,510 --> 00:24:40,880
a lot of things start

624
00:24:46,390 --> 00:24:43,520
falling differently in terms of how i

625
00:24:48,630 --> 00:24:46,400
orient myself to the world how i orient

626
00:24:51,029 --> 00:24:48,640
myself to other people how i orient

627
00:24:52,630 --> 00:24:51,039
myself to morals purpose

628
00:24:55,510 --> 00:24:52,640
meaning in life

629
00:24:57,350 --> 00:24:55,520
so that is what i'm exploring but i'm

630
00:24:59,750 --> 00:24:57,360
exploring it from the other side of the

631
00:25:01,590 --> 00:24:59,760
chasm other side of the chasm being

632
00:25:04,870 --> 00:25:01,600
consciousness survives death you are not

633
00:25:05,669 --> 00:25:04,880
a biological robot you know you

634
00:25:07,430 --> 00:25:05,679
okay

635
00:25:10,310 --> 00:25:07,440
all right fine

636
00:25:11,990 --> 00:25:10,320
i mean i i disagree i've said why so

637
00:25:14,549 --> 00:25:12,000
um

638
00:25:17,430 --> 00:25:14,559
of course you desecrate you stand up and

639
00:25:19,190 --> 00:25:17,440
say i am a biological robot i am going

640
00:25:21,350 --> 00:25:19,200
to stand by that there's no evidence for

641
00:25:23,590 --> 00:25:21,360
invisible beings or entities

642
00:25:25,190 --> 00:25:23,600
hey but but you as you live your life

643
00:25:26,870 --> 00:25:25,200
you live your life like a biological

644
00:25:29,430 --> 00:25:26,880
role everybody does that's that's uh

645
00:25:31,190 --> 00:25:29,440
that's all there is

646
00:25:34,149 --> 00:25:31,200
now of course these examples that i've

647
00:25:36,470 --> 00:25:34,159
given you aren't the only kind of stuck

648
00:25:38,549 --> 00:25:36,480
on stupid debates out there these kind

649
00:25:40,950 --> 00:25:38,559
of debates crop up all the time on

650
00:25:42,950 --> 00:25:40,960
skeptico one example that didn't make it

651
00:25:45,190 --> 00:25:42,960
into the podcast but it's something that

652
00:25:46,950 --> 00:25:45,200
we talked about on the skeptical forum

653
00:25:49,430 --> 00:25:46,960
comes from a really interesting panel

654
00:25:52,310 --> 00:25:49,440
discussion titled reversing death the

655
00:25:55,190 --> 00:25:52,320
miracle of modern medicine and it

656
00:25:57,269 --> 00:25:55,200
featured steve paulsen who is a who's a

657
00:25:59,430 --> 00:25:57,279
journalist with npr and has been on this

658
00:26:02,230 --> 00:25:59,440
show before and is very interested in

659
00:26:05,269 --> 00:26:02,240
these topics and it also featured three

660
00:26:07,190 --> 00:26:05,279
very prominent highly regarded experts

661
00:26:09,830 --> 00:26:07,200
on resuscitation

662
00:26:12,310 --> 00:26:09,840
one is sam parnia who you may know he's

663
00:26:14,789 --> 00:26:12,320
been on the show he's also an expert in

664
00:26:17,190 --> 00:26:14,799
near-death experience research but first

665
00:26:19,830 --> 00:26:17,200
and foremost he's one of the foremost

666
00:26:22,549 --> 00:26:19,840
experts in resuscitation the panel also

667
00:26:24,710 --> 00:26:22,559
included lance becker and stephen mayer

668
00:26:26,950 --> 00:26:24,720
two folks i didn't know so much about

669
00:26:29,909 --> 00:26:26,960
but all these people are top-notch

670
00:26:31,590 --> 00:26:29,919
physicians and research experts with

671
00:26:34,630 --> 00:26:31,600
degrees and credentials that are

672
00:26:36,549 --> 00:26:34,640
extremely extremely impressive

673
00:26:38,230 --> 00:26:36,559
so during this panel discussion they

674
00:26:40,710 --> 00:26:38,240
talked about a number of topics

675
00:26:43,190 --> 00:26:40,720
associated with resuscitation brain

676
00:26:44,789 --> 00:26:43,200
death last will stuff but you kind of

677
00:26:46,549 --> 00:26:44,799
felt like sooner or later they were

678
00:26:49,750 --> 00:26:46,559
going to move on to near-death

679
00:26:52,390 --> 00:26:49,760
experience because it's such a hot topic

680
00:26:54,230 --> 00:26:52,400
and eventually they did and near the end

681
00:26:56,870 --> 00:26:54,240
of their discussion on near-death

682
00:26:59,430 --> 00:26:56,880
experience there was a did noah's ark

683
00:27:01,590 --> 00:26:59,440
have nails moment it comes near the end

684
00:27:03,350 --> 00:27:01,600
of the clip let me play it for you and

685
00:27:05,350 --> 00:27:03,360
see if you can catch it

686
00:27:06,710 --> 00:27:05,360
i'm surprised that none of you has

687
00:27:08,789 --> 00:27:06,720
talked about

688
00:27:10,149 --> 00:27:08,799
what is classif classically called a

689
00:27:12,789 --> 00:27:10,159
near-death experience you know people

690
00:27:15,269 --> 00:27:12,799
who have come back and who report

691
00:27:16,549 --> 00:27:15,279
astonishing things that they experienced

692
00:27:18,230 --> 00:27:16,559
as you pointed out i mean this is an

693
00:27:19,669 --> 00:27:18,240
area that i'm very interested in and

694
00:27:21,269 --> 00:27:19,679
this is actually what got me into

695
00:27:22,950 --> 00:27:21,279
cardiac arrest work was when i was a

696
00:27:24,870 --> 00:27:22,960
student and i had a patient who i got to

697
00:27:26,070 --> 00:27:24,880
know very well who essentially died in

698
00:27:27,669 --> 00:27:26,080
front of me

699
00:27:29,909 --> 00:27:27,679
they tried to save and they couldn't and

700
00:27:31,430 --> 00:27:29,919
i was left answering asking this

701
00:27:33,590 --> 00:27:31,440
question as to what's happening to this

702
00:27:35,430 --> 00:27:33,600
person as he's going through this as

703
00:27:37,190 --> 00:27:35,440
he's flatlined as they're all sort of

704
00:27:38,870 --> 00:27:37,200
you know standing away and saying that's

705
00:27:40,390 --> 00:27:38,880
the end is he able to hear us is he able

706
00:27:42,390 --> 00:27:40,400
to see us what happened to his

707
00:27:44,390 --> 00:27:42,400
consciousness and just to sort of take a

708
00:27:53,830 --> 00:27:44,400
slight bit of revenge on you for not

709
00:27:56,789 --> 00:27:55,430
i will come back but one of the best

710
00:27:59,590 --> 00:27:56,799
things one of the best things i ever

711
00:28:01,190 --> 00:27:59,600
heard someone say was what you said once

712
00:28:03,190 --> 00:28:01,200
so i was listening to one of your

713
00:28:04,630 --> 00:28:03,200
podcasts i think it was actually a

714
00:28:07,430 --> 00:28:04,640
session that was done here a year or two

715
00:28:08,549 --> 00:28:07,440
ago and you said that when you go home

716
00:28:10,389 --> 00:28:08,559
at night

717
00:28:12,149 --> 00:28:10,399
you have this fascination with

718
00:28:13,830 --> 00:28:12,159
consciousness and you pick up books

719
00:28:16,149 --> 00:28:13,840
while your wife is reading like the

720
00:28:17,909 --> 00:28:16,159
latest novel on whatever you pick up a

721
00:28:19,750 --> 00:28:17,919
book on consciousness and it's this big

722
00:28:20,870 --> 00:28:19,760
and you find it fascinating and you read

723
00:28:22,870 --> 00:28:20,880
it to the end

724
00:28:25,029 --> 00:28:22,880
and that's one of those was your books

725
00:28:27,269 --> 00:28:25,039
by the way oh really good yeah so

726
00:28:28,630 --> 00:28:27,279
i'm the same i'm a physician

727
00:28:30,549 --> 00:28:28,640
but i'm also fascinated with

728
00:28:32,710 --> 00:28:30,559
consciousness which is what is it that

729
00:28:34,549 --> 00:28:32,720
makes us into who we are and one of the

730
00:28:36,230 --> 00:28:34,559
big big questions we have right now in

731
00:28:37,269 --> 00:28:36,240
science and for the for this century

732
00:28:38,230 --> 00:28:37,279
really is

733
00:28:42,950 --> 00:28:38,240
how

734
00:28:44,870 --> 00:28:42,960
this thinking conscious being that makes

735
00:28:46,310 --> 00:28:44,880
us into who we are and the general

736
00:28:48,149 --> 00:28:46,320
theory out there of course has not been

737
00:28:50,149 --> 00:28:48,159
proven is that somehow brain cell

738
00:28:52,149 --> 00:28:50,159
processes somehow generate the mind

739
00:28:54,149 --> 00:28:52,159
generate thoughts generate who we are

740
00:28:55,990 --> 00:28:54,159
but of course there's no theory or even

741
00:28:57,909 --> 00:28:56,000
a plausible biological mechanism to

742
00:29:00,310 --> 00:28:57,919
account for how cells could even

743
00:29:01,830 --> 00:29:00,320
generate a single thought so now take

744
00:29:03,990 --> 00:29:01,840
that and bring it to

745
00:29:06,630 --> 00:29:04,000
the subject of what happens when we die

746
00:29:11,590 --> 00:29:09,830
after you know cpr was first discovered

747
00:29:13,430 --> 00:29:11,600
about 15 years after that a book was

748
00:29:15,350 --> 00:29:13,440
published which chronicled the

749
00:29:16,630 --> 00:29:15,360
experiences that people have had when

750
00:29:18,630 --> 00:29:16,640
they've been close to death or when

751
00:29:20,789 --> 00:29:18,640
their hearts had stopped and essentially

752
00:29:22,630 --> 00:29:20,799
these people all described feeling

753
00:29:24,389 --> 00:29:22,640
peaceful they had a universal experience

754
00:29:26,230 --> 00:29:24,399
of feeling immense peace

755
00:29:28,149 --> 00:29:26,240
seeing a bright warm welcoming light

756
00:29:30,230 --> 00:29:28,159
that draws them towards it seeing a

757
00:29:32,470 --> 00:29:30,240
tunnel seeing deceased relatives

758
00:29:34,710 --> 00:29:32,480
sometimes welcoming them sometimes

759
00:29:36,630 --> 00:29:34,720
describing seeing a being that was full

760
00:29:38,630 --> 00:29:36,640
of love and compassion that would take

761
00:29:41,269 --> 00:29:38,640
them through essentially an educational

762
00:29:43,269 --> 00:29:41,279
experience where they relived everything

763
00:29:45,190 --> 00:29:43,279
that they had done and they had said and

764
00:29:46,950 --> 00:29:45,200
they judge themselves with this being's

765
00:29:48,950 --> 00:29:46,960
help and often they describe going to a

766
00:29:50,950 --> 00:29:48,960
beautiful place and at some point they

767
00:29:53,190 --> 00:29:50,960
realized they had to come back and a

768
00:29:54,710 --> 00:29:53,200
small proportion of them also described

769
00:29:56,149 --> 00:29:54,720
watching doctors and nurses working on

770
00:29:57,750 --> 00:29:56,159
them and that's the classical near death

771
00:29:59,029 --> 00:29:57,760
experience now

772
00:30:00,870 --> 00:29:59,039
the explanations that were put forward

773
00:30:02,549 --> 00:30:00,880
in the 70s and 80s were this is probably

774
00:30:04,230 --> 00:30:02,559
just simply lack of oxygen a change in

775
00:30:05,430 --> 00:30:04,240
carbon dioxide level and i think those

776
00:30:07,909 --> 00:30:05,440
are now

777
00:30:09,990 --> 00:30:07,919
antiquated with what we understand so

778
00:30:11,510 --> 00:30:10,000
all we can say essentially is that and

779
00:30:13,990 --> 00:30:11,520
the reason someone like me is interested

780
00:30:16,230 --> 00:30:14,000
in this is in order for us to save a

781
00:30:17,830 --> 00:30:16,240
person and bring them back we have to

782
00:30:19,830 --> 00:30:17,840
understand what happens the brain to the

783
00:30:21,669 --> 00:30:19,840
cells after a person has technically

784
00:30:23,590 --> 00:30:21,679
died but we can never forget there's a

785
00:30:25,590 --> 00:30:23,600
person there so what does happen to

786
00:30:28,470 --> 00:30:25,600
their consciousness and the evidence we

787
00:30:30,149 --> 00:30:28,480
have so far and it's an emerging field

788
00:30:32,950 --> 00:30:30,159
is that when a person has technically

789
00:30:34,710 --> 00:30:32,960
died their brain flatlines

790
00:30:36,950 --> 00:30:34,720
and no human experience should be

791
00:30:39,269 --> 00:30:36,960
happening at that time whatsoever

792
00:30:40,950 --> 00:30:39,279
paradoxically 10 to 20 percent of people

793
00:30:42,870 --> 00:30:40,960
do come back and they report these

794
00:30:44,470 --> 00:30:42,880
incredible experiences how do we know

795
00:30:46,230 --> 00:30:44,480
that they're not recalling these

796
00:30:47,669 --> 00:30:46,240
experiences as they're coming back to

797
00:30:49,350 --> 00:30:47,679
consciousness as they're coming out of

798
00:30:50,870 --> 00:30:49,360
the coma well that's a very good

799
00:30:52,389 --> 00:30:50,880
question and that's been part of what

800
00:30:55,350 --> 00:30:52,399
i've been trying to study and i will be

801
00:30:57,830 --> 00:30:55,360
releasing the results of our study

802
00:30:58,950 --> 00:30:57,840
in a month or so at a conference that at

803
00:31:01,669 --> 00:30:58,960
the american heart association

804
00:31:04,230 --> 00:31:01,679
conference but there are cases which

805
00:31:06,149 --> 00:31:04,240
don't support that including what we

806
00:31:08,070 --> 00:31:06,159
found in our research where essentially

807
00:31:10,149 --> 00:31:08,080
you can time the person's experience you

808
00:31:12,549 --> 00:31:10,159
can see they will tell you exactly what

809
00:31:14,230 --> 00:31:12,559
was happening to them 15 or 20 minutes

810
00:31:16,470 --> 00:31:14,240
into their cardiac arrest rather than

811
00:31:17,830 --> 00:31:16,480
just the beginning or just the end where

812
00:31:19,430 --> 00:31:17,840
the brain function was coming back

813
00:31:21,430 --> 00:31:19,440
online again so i just want to follow up

814
00:31:23,510 --> 00:31:21,440
on this you're saying they're reporting

815
00:31:25,510 --> 00:31:23,520
what that happened 15 or 20 minutes ago

816
00:31:27,830 --> 00:31:25,520
they're reporting conversations that

817
00:31:29,590 --> 00:31:27,840
were heard they described so if you a

818
00:31:31,110 --> 00:31:29,600
proportion of people will describe in

819
00:31:33,350 --> 00:31:31,120
incredible detail

820
00:31:35,750 --> 00:31:33,360
conversations events that were happening

821
00:31:38,310 --> 00:31:35,760
clothing everything that happened

822
00:31:40,230 --> 00:31:38,320
except that as far as we can tell their

823
00:31:42,870 --> 00:31:40,240
brain at that time should be flatlined

824
00:31:45,110 --> 00:31:42,880
and at best it's very very disorganized

825
00:31:47,029 --> 00:31:45,120
yet they come back it's not just the

826
00:31:49,110 --> 00:31:47,039
subjective experience of i saw a tunnel

827
00:31:51,990 --> 00:31:49,120
eyes or light they will say that well dr

828
00:31:54,870 --> 00:31:52,000
meyer came in here and he was wearing a

829
00:31:56,870 --> 00:31:54,880
navy suit with a tie that was sort of

830
00:31:58,549 --> 00:31:56,880
brown and it had stripes on it and he

831
00:32:00,470 --> 00:31:58,559
said my god this guy doesn't look very

832
00:32:02,310 --> 00:32:00,480
good let's call his wife and then my

833
00:32:03,909 --> 00:32:02,320
wife was crying

834
00:32:05,430 --> 00:32:03,919
and in all this time someone's doing

835
00:32:08,470 --> 00:32:05,440
this and someone's doing that you know

836
00:32:12,630 --> 00:32:08,480
by the way so no resuscitation is ever

837
00:32:16,070 --> 00:32:14,310
are you messed up are you now talking

838
00:32:17,669 --> 00:32:16,080
about what are classically called

839
00:32:19,269 --> 00:32:17,679
out-of-body experiences i mean people

840
00:32:21,990 --> 00:32:19,279
you know the the

841
00:32:23,269 --> 00:32:22,000
the i don't know what the the entity

842
00:32:24,549 --> 00:32:23,279
hovering at the top of the ceiling

843
00:32:27,029 --> 00:32:24,559
looking down at the opposite you should

844
00:32:29,909 --> 00:32:27,039
have invited me i told you

845
00:32:32,070 --> 00:32:29,919
so okay so i i hate that term near death

846
00:32:34,230 --> 00:32:32,080
experience and outer body experiences

847
00:32:35,909 --> 00:32:34,240
i'll tell you why because there are

848
00:32:38,389 --> 00:32:35,919
labels that have been put forward since

849
00:32:40,789 --> 00:32:38,399
the 70s which basically polarizes people

850
00:32:42,710 --> 00:32:40,799
into the religious people and the

851
00:32:44,389 --> 00:32:42,720
non-religious scientific people and the

852
00:32:47,110 --> 00:32:44,399
fact is we're dealing with a human

853
00:32:49,190 --> 00:32:47,120
experience in the same way that 50 years

854
00:32:50,389 --> 00:32:49,200
ago if you said that we could study love

855
00:32:52,950 --> 00:32:50,399
through science they think it's

856
00:32:55,590 --> 00:32:52,960
non-scientific but actually we can

857
00:32:57,190 --> 00:32:55,600
so the people that we study are not near

858
00:32:58,549 --> 00:32:57,200
death and as far as i'm concerned i

859
00:32:59,990 --> 00:32:58,559
don't like to call their experiences out

860
00:33:02,070 --> 00:33:00,000
of body experiences

861
00:33:03,830 --> 00:33:02,080
they are people who have

862
00:33:05,909 --> 00:33:03,840
gone through death as far as we

863
00:33:08,310 --> 00:33:05,919
understand it technically and they have

864
00:33:10,310 --> 00:33:08,320
a unique experience and part of that is

865
00:33:11,750 --> 00:33:10,320
having a sensation of seeing themselves

866
00:33:13,830 --> 00:33:11,760
and watching and hearing things so they

867
00:33:15,590 --> 00:33:13,840
have consciousness present

868
00:33:18,470 --> 00:33:15,600
when consciousness should not be present

869
00:33:20,710 --> 00:33:18,480
as far as our science tells us today

870
00:33:22,630 --> 00:33:20,720
the obvious conclusion that what we draw

871
00:33:25,029 --> 00:33:22,640
from this is that somehow there's some

872
00:33:26,630 --> 00:33:25,039
aspect of the mind of consciousness

873
00:33:28,710 --> 00:33:26,640
that is not associated with a

874
00:33:30,389 --> 00:33:28,720
corresponding brain state

875
00:33:31,190 --> 00:33:30,399
well like i said i mean this is very

876
00:33:33,269 --> 00:33:31,200
much

877
00:33:34,549 --> 00:33:33,279
a subject that's early

878
00:33:35,990 --> 00:33:34,559
and just being studied there haven't

879
00:33:36,710 --> 00:33:36,000
been many studies

880
00:33:38,549 --> 00:33:36,720
but

881
00:33:40,149 --> 00:33:38,559
we have to be open to it it's possible

882
00:33:41,509 --> 00:33:40,159
like i said there is enough anecdotal

883
00:33:43,350 --> 00:33:41,519
evidence and there are enough cases that

884
00:33:45,750 --> 00:33:43,360
have occurred that suggests that

885
00:33:47,430 --> 00:33:45,760
consciousness may continue when brain

886
00:33:49,029 --> 00:33:47,440
function has ceased and to answer a

887
00:33:50,310 --> 00:33:49,039
point that stefan raised which i think

888
00:33:51,909 --> 00:33:50,320
is very important

889
00:33:54,149 --> 00:33:51,919
yes when you interview them afterwards

890
00:33:55,830 --> 00:33:54,159
most of them don't recall anything

891
00:33:58,070 --> 00:33:55,840
and the reason for that in my opinion is

892
00:33:59,830 --> 00:33:58,080
simply because their brain was severely

893
00:34:01,590 --> 00:33:59,840
traumatized they were given lots of

894
00:34:03,590 --> 00:34:01,600
sedative drugs and all of those together

895
00:34:05,190 --> 00:34:03,600
wipe out their memory circuits it's

896
00:34:07,350 --> 00:34:05,200
similar to the fact that we all have a

897
00:34:08,869 --> 00:34:07,360
dream but if you were to ask us the

898
00:34:10,470 --> 00:34:08,879
following day we don't recall the dream

899
00:34:11,990 --> 00:34:10,480
it doesn't we didn't have it the

900
00:34:14,310 --> 00:34:12,000
evidence that i've seen from patients

901
00:34:15,669 --> 00:34:14,320
that we've studied is that actually

902
00:34:17,430 --> 00:34:15,679
many more of them probably have the

903
00:34:19,349 --> 00:34:17,440
experience but with time they forget it

904
00:34:21,430 --> 00:34:19,359
so if you don't interview them at the

905
00:34:22,710 --> 00:34:21,440
appropriate time they won't recall it in

906
00:34:24,790 --> 00:34:22,720
the same way that people forget their

907
00:34:26,389 --> 00:34:24,800
dreams so it's a completely new area

908
00:34:28,389 --> 00:34:26,399
that's really come about it's the flip

909
00:34:30,069 --> 00:34:28,399
side of the coin one side is to save the

910
00:34:31,349 --> 00:34:30,079
brain the other side is also we're

911
00:34:33,430 --> 00:34:31,359
beginning to study what happens to

912
00:34:34,550 --> 00:34:33,440
consciousness lance i want to bring you

913
00:34:36,470 --> 00:34:34,560
in here

914
00:34:38,950 --> 00:34:36,480
what do you make of these near-death

915
00:34:40,069 --> 00:34:38,960
experiences

916
00:34:42,629 --> 00:34:40,079
i

917
00:34:44,389 --> 00:34:42,639
really

918
00:34:46,230 --> 00:34:44,399
sort of uh

919
00:34:48,950 --> 00:34:46,240
has has this right which is i think we

920
00:34:50,470 --> 00:34:48,960
have to be open to it and i think that

921
00:34:52,550 --> 00:34:50,480
we have to

922
00:34:56,149 --> 00:34:52,560
try to understand it because there's

923
00:35:01,750 --> 00:34:58,470
is coming to us that right now we just

924
00:35:03,910 --> 00:35:01,760
can't really adequately explain this is

925
00:35:05,510 --> 00:35:03,920
what i think most of us what most of it

926
00:35:07,750 --> 00:35:05,520
like i just i just don't have a really

927
00:35:09,990 --> 00:35:07,760
good explanation for it i think we have

928
00:35:11,349 --> 00:35:10,000
to be just dead honest

929
00:35:13,190 --> 00:35:11,359
with ourselves and say we don't have a

930
00:35:16,150 --> 00:35:13,200
good explanation for this

931
00:35:17,990 --> 00:35:16,160
and because it's so intrinsically

932
00:35:21,990 --> 00:35:18,000
surrounding this very

933
00:35:24,150 --> 00:35:22,000
uh uh important event um i i think we're

934
00:35:26,069 --> 00:35:24,160
at a point where we need to learn more

935
00:35:28,310 --> 00:35:26,079
about it and and need to sort of delve

936
00:35:29,589 --> 00:35:28,320
into it and so um but that's interesting

937
00:35:31,430 --> 00:35:29,599
i mean what you are saying though is

938
00:35:34,310 --> 00:35:31,440
you're not you're not willing to say oh

939
00:35:36,310 --> 00:35:34,320
this is clearly just the result of some

940
00:35:38,470 --> 00:35:36,320
biochemical hallucination you are open

941
00:35:39,750 --> 00:35:38,480
to the possibility something more might

942
00:35:41,910 --> 00:35:39,760
be going on

943
00:35:43,990 --> 00:35:41,920
i am open to

944
00:35:45,190 --> 00:35:44,000
anything that we can sort of begin to

945
00:35:47,270 --> 00:35:45,200
understand

946
00:35:49,030 --> 00:35:47,280
about it and it you know and it might

947
00:35:51,430 --> 00:35:49,040
include things about

948
00:35:53,510 --> 00:35:51,440
firing of neural receptors and it and

949
00:35:55,030 --> 00:35:53,520
and it may have to do with other things

950
00:35:57,190 --> 00:35:55,040
that are really

951
00:35:59,829 --> 00:35:57,200
outside of what we understand right now

952
00:36:02,150 --> 00:35:59,839
so whether you want to call it quantum

953
00:36:03,670 --> 00:36:02,160
sort of interactions on some level

954
00:36:07,990 --> 00:36:03,680
you know like

955
00:36:11,670 --> 00:36:10,390
but that doesn't prevent me from sort of

956
00:36:13,910 --> 00:36:11,680
believing

957
00:36:16,710 --> 00:36:13,920
that that it might exist

958
00:36:18,870 --> 00:36:16,720
i think in in a similar way

959
00:36:22,390 --> 00:36:18,880
we need to be open to sort of trying to

960
00:36:24,390 --> 00:36:22,400
understand what what is this and and

961
00:36:26,470 --> 00:36:24,400
i'm a very practical

962
00:36:28,470 --> 00:36:26,480
sort of clinician fundamentally it's

963
00:36:30,470 --> 00:36:28,480
like well so what what are the important

964
00:36:32,150 --> 00:36:30,480
things that i need to know to help a

965
00:36:35,910 --> 00:36:32,160
patient manage it help a family

966
00:36:38,230 --> 00:36:35,920
management to bring to sense peace to

967
00:36:39,829 --> 00:36:38,240
people about it i think that we have a

968
00:36:41,349 --> 00:36:39,839
responsibility to sort of learn more

969
00:36:43,109 --> 00:36:41,359
about that

970
00:36:44,790 --> 00:36:43,119
stefan from what you were saying earlier

971
00:36:46,710 --> 00:36:44,800
i got the sense that maybe you are the

972
00:36:48,630 --> 00:36:46,720
the resident skeptic on the panel here

973
00:36:49,829 --> 00:36:48,640
but is that true i would

974
00:36:50,950 --> 00:36:49,839
what do you think

975
00:36:52,710 --> 00:36:50,960
um

976
00:36:54,950 --> 00:36:52,720
you know i'm thinking about how to put

977
00:36:57,109 --> 00:36:54,960
all this together and

978
00:36:59,670 --> 00:36:57,119
um and i'm going to make a guess about

979
00:37:01,670 --> 00:36:59,680
what sam's been talking about i

980
00:37:03,829 --> 00:37:01,680
i think

981
00:37:05,109 --> 00:37:03,839
for instance we've got people in our icu

982
00:37:07,349 --> 00:37:05,119
and they can

983
00:37:10,390 --> 00:37:07,359
they can become pulseless

984
00:37:12,470 --> 00:37:10,400
and we run eeg on them all

985
00:37:13,910 --> 00:37:12,480
right so we've got so i already i can

986
00:37:17,030 --> 00:37:13,920
already tell you

987
00:37:18,310 --> 00:37:17,040
that one minute 60 seconds after right

988
00:37:19,829 --> 00:37:18,320
when we're getting ready to start the

989
00:37:21,270 --> 00:37:19,839
chest compressions you've still got some

990
00:37:23,430 --> 00:37:21,280
brainwaves

991
00:37:24,790 --> 00:37:23,440
right and we know that there's a point

992
00:37:27,270 --> 00:37:24,800
in time

993
00:37:29,829 --> 00:37:27,280
as as the blood pressure remains very

994
00:37:31,589 --> 00:37:29,839
low that the eeg quickly kind of slows

995
00:37:34,390 --> 00:37:31,599
down right

996
00:37:36,190 --> 00:37:34,400
and we would think conventionally well

997
00:37:38,630 --> 00:37:36,200
then okay i guess all the

998
00:37:40,150 --> 00:37:38,640
electrocoptivity of the brain is stopped

999
00:37:41,109 --> 00:37:40,160
it's all about electricity with our

1000
00:37:43,270 --> 00:37:41,119
brain

1001
00:37:45,910 --> 00:37:43,280
but what we've started to learn is in

1002
00:37:49,270 --> 00:37:45,920
some of our coma patients

1003
00:37:51,109 --> 00:37:49,280
we now put little wires down into the

1004
00:37:53,109 --> 00:37:51,119
brain that can measure electrical

1005
00:37:54,710 --> 00:37:53,119
activity deep in the brain these are

1006
00:37:57,109 --> 00:37:54,720
probes they're called eg depth

1007
00:37:59,349 --> 00:37:57,119
electrodes that we send down along with

1008
00:38:01,750 --> 00:37:59,359
pressure monitors and oxygen monitors

1009
00:38:04,790 --> 00:38:01,760
and measures of physiology

1010
00:38:07,430 --> 00:38:04,800
well we've already seen cases where with

1011
00:38:09,510 --> 00:38:07,440
the conventional eeg on the surface it's

1012
00:38:11,990 --> 00:38:09,520
flat but then when you have the little

1013
00:38:15,030 --> 00:38:12,000
depth eeg guess what brain's still

1014
00:38:17,829 --> 00:38:15,040
working it's just turned off

1015
00:38:20,550 --> 00:38:17,839
the cortical mantle but the subcortical

1016
00:38:21,589 --> 00:38:20,560
structures are still working so there

1017
00:38:23,190 --> 00:38:21,599
may be

1018
00:38:26,550 --> 00:38:23,200
a i guess what i'm saying is there may

1019
00:38:29,349 --> 00:38:26,560
be a a pretty simple or easy to

1020
00:38:32,630 --> 00:38:29,359
understand non-mystical physiologic

1021
00:38:34,870 --> 00:38:32,640
explanation for why people can grab and

1022
00:38:36,310 --> 00:38:34,880
retain memories and remember that i'm a

1023
00:38:39,750 --> 00:38:36,320
bad dresser

1024
00:38:41,670 --> 00:38:39,760
during a 20-minute cpr

1025
00:38:43,589 --> 00:38:41,680
if they get resuscitated there actually

1026
00:38:44,710 --> 00:38:43,599
may be a physiologic basis for that i

1027
00:38:47,510 --> 00:38:44,720
think

1028
00:38:48,950 --> 00:38:47,520
as as as physicians and scientists

1029
00:38:50,710 --> 00:38:48,960
that's what we're going to look first

1030
00:38:52,790 --> 00:38:50,720
and i guess wherever

1031
00:38:54,390 --> 00:38:52,800
our levels of understanding end we're

1032
00:38:55,990 --> 00:38:54,400
getting more and more understanding but

1033
00:38:58,390 --> 00:38:56,000
those we're never going to understand it

1034
00:39:00,710 --> 00:38:58,400
all and then that's that beyond that

1035
00:39:02,230 --> 00:39:00,720
boundary that's where we gotta kind of

1036
00:39:06,790 --> 00:39:02,240
fill in the blanks and we're dealing

1037
00:39:11,270 --> 00:39:08,950
first off let me say that dr stephen

1038
00:39:14,230 --> 00:39:11,280
mayer who you just heard talking is

1039
00:39:16,870 --> 00:39:14,240
obviously a smart guy a leader in the

1040
00:39:20,230 --> 00:39:16,880
field of resuscitation he's forgotten

1041
00:39:21,670 --> 00:39:20,240
more about medicine and science than i

1042
00:39:22,630 --> 00:39:21,680
ever knew

1043
00:39:25,190 --> 00:39:22,640
but

1044
00:39:28,390 --> 00:39:25,200
when it comes to near-death experience

1045
00:39:31,670 --> 00:39:28,400
science he's using some did noah's ark

1046
00:39:34,950 --> 00:39:31,680
have nails logic he's suggesting that

1047
00:39:37,190 --> 00:39:34,960
there's some deep brain activity that's

1048
00:39:40,870 --> 00:39:37,200
undetectable by eeg

1049
00:39:43,829 --> 00:39:40,880
that could explain the complex deep

1050
00:39:45,829 --> 00:39:43,839
hyperlucid experiences that people are

1051
00:39:48,390 --> 00:39:45,839
having where they're seeing things

1052
00:39:51,270 --> 00:39:48,400
outside of their body in other rooms

1053
00:39:53,430 --> 00:39:51,280
while their eyes are closed and covered

1054
00:39:56,550 --> 00:39:53,440
now to suggest that

1055
00:39:59,510 --> 00:39:56,560
is to say that everything we know about

1056
00:40:01,670 --> 00:39:59,520
how the brain works is wrong because hey

1057
00:40:03,990 --> 00:40:01,680
we don't have a model for the brain that

1058
00:40:05,910 --> 00:40:04,000
explains how you can see with your eyes

1059
00:40:07,510 --> 00:40:05,920
closed we don't have a model for the

1060
00:40:09,190 --> 00:40:07,520
brain about how you can hear

1061
00:40:11,109 --> 00:40:09,200
conversations in the hallway three

1062
00:40:13,109 --> 00:40:11,119
floors down while you're on a gurney

1063
00:40:15,270 --> 00:40:13,119
being resuscitated heck we don't even

1064
00:40:17,670 --> 00:40:15,280
have a model for the brain for how you

1065
00:40:20,950 --> 00:40:17,680
can be having these experiences and not

1066
00:40:23,270 --> 00:40:20,960
have an eeg going off like crazy

1067
00:40:25,589 --> 00:40:23,280
so for dr mera to suggest that oh don't

1068
00:40:28,310 --> 00:40:25,599
worry boys we'll figure all this out

1069
00:40:30,950 --> 00:40:28,320
eventually and not sound some sort of

1070
00:40:33,829 --> 00:40:30,960
alarm based on the data that he has and

1071
00:40:36,710 --> 00:40:33,839
accepts because he does except that

1072
00:40:38,550 --> 00:40:36,720
near-death experiences are happening and

1073
00:40:41,750 --> 00:40:38,560
that they are happening during a time

1074
00:40:44,150 --> 00:40:41,760
when the eeg is flat so for him not to

1075
00:40:46,710 --> 00:40:44,160
announce that as some kind of enormous

1076
00:40:49,430 --> 00:40:46,720
mystery that requires our immediate and

1077
00:40:52,790 --> 00:40:49,440
serious attention and instead to shift

1078
00:40:55,990 --> 00:40:52,800
the focus on these deep brain probes

1079
00:40:57,510 --> 00:40:56,000
is a did noah's ark have nails moment

1080
00:40:59,430 --> 00:40:57,520
it's shifting the focus away from a

1081
00:41:01,430 --> 00:40:59,440
topic that you don't feel really

1082
00:41:03,349 --> 00:41:01,440
comfortable addressing so that you can

1083
00:41:05,430 --> 00:41:03,359
kind of grind on something that's really

1084
00:41:06,870 --> 00:41:05,440
pretty meaningless in this case it's a

1085
00:41:10,309 --> 00:41:06,880
little more subtle it's a little more

1086
00:41:11,670 --> 00:41:10,319
refined but basically it's the same

1087
00:41:13,750 --> 00:41:11,680
thing

1088
00:41:16,069 --> 00:41:13,760
and that leads me into point four of

1089
00:41:19,349 --> 00:41:16,079
things you should know about skeptico

1090
00:41:22,230 --> 00:41:19,359
and that is that if skeptico is about

1091
00:41:25,430 --> 00:41:22,240
moving past these stuck on stupid

1092
00:41:26,790 --> 00:41:25,440
debates these did noah's ark have nails

1093
00:41:29,109 --> 00:41:26,800
kind of debates

1094
00:41:31,109 --> 00:41:29,119
then what kind of dialogues am i looking

1095
00:41:34,150 --> 00:41:31,119
to have well one of the things that

1096
00:41:36,470 --> 00:41:34,160
really drives me motivates me excites me

1097
00:41:39,670 --> 00:41:36,480
is all the interesting questions that

1098
00:41:41,510 --> 00:41:39,680
lie beyond these debates and there are

1099
00:41:44,309 --> 00:41:41,520
so many of them and i want to get to

1100
00:41:48,470 --> 00:41:44,319
them i'm less interested in whether or

1101
00:41:51,349 --> 00:41:48,480
not sam parnea's new aware study will

1102
00:41:53,589 --> 00:41:51,359
win over some of the atheist skeptics

1103
00:41:56,069 --> 00:41:53,599
who are still on the fence about the

1104
00:41:58,710 --> 00:41:56,079
reality of near-death experience what

1105
00:42:00,870 --> 00:41:58,720
i'm interested in is comparing

1106
00:42:03,430 --> 00:42:00,880
near-death experiences with other

1107
00:42:05,630 --> 00:42:03,440
experiences with extended human

1108
00:42:08,870 --> 00:42:05,640
consciousness whether they be a

1109
00:42:12,069 --> 00:42:08,880
dmt-induced hallucination or a kundalini

1110
00:42:15,670 --> 00:42:12,079
experience or a ufo encounter that's the

1111
00:42:18,190 --> 00:42:15,680
kind of question that lies beyond the

1112
00:42:22,069 --> 00:42:18,200
whole consciousness is an illusion of a

1113
00:42:24,390 --> 00:42:22,079
biological robot stupid stuff now to get

1114
00:42:26,309 --> 00:42:24,400
to that next level kind of discussion

1115
00:42:29,510 --> 00:42:26,319
i'm gonna have to circle back from time

1116
00:42:31,750 --> 00:42:29,520
to time to revisit my assumptions and i

1117
00:42:33,829 --> 00:42:31,760
have to be aware and honest about the

1118
00:42:36,150 --> 00:42:33,839
fact that consciousness is an illusion

1119
00:42:37,990 --> 00:42:36,160
of a biological robot thing i'm talking

1120
00:42:41,109 --> 00:42:38,000
about happens to be

1121
00:42:43,750 --> 00:42:41,119
the dominant scientific paradigm so we

1122
00:42:46,470 --> 00:42:43,760
can't pretend it doesn't cast a huge

1123
00:42:49,030 --> 00:42:46,480
shadow on any serious scientific

1124
00:42:51,670 --> 00:42:49,040
conversation we might have i don't want

1125
00:42:53,750 --> 00:42:51,680
to pretend that's not true and similarly

1126
00:42:55,589 --> 00:42:53,760
i want to be real about our culture's

1127
00:42:58,230 --> 00:42:55,599
judeo-christian roots and now that can

1128
00:42:59,910 --> 00:42:58,240
cast the shadow on all conversations we

1129
00:43:02,470 --> 00:42:59,920
might have about the spiritual

1130
00:43:04,710 --> 00:43:02,480
implications we might discover when we

1131
00:43:06,550 --> 00:43:04,720
go beyond this extended human

1132
00:43:09,030 --> 00:43:06,560
consciousness so i'm going to need to

1133
00:43:10,870 --> 00:43:09,040
circle back and re-examine some of our

1134
00:43:13,190 --> 00:43:10,880
spiritual traditions and religious

1135
00:43:16,150 --> 00:43:13,200
traditions from time to time as well and

1136
00:43:18,470 --> 00:43:16,160
i'm sure i'll do that in future shows

1137
00:43:21,589 --> 00:43:18,480
and then finally on this point i think i

1138
00:43:24,309 --> 00:43:21,599
also have to be realistic and accept

1139
00:43:27,349 --> 00:43:24,319
that this path that i'm on

1140
00:43:29,750 --> 00:43:27,359
is not going to be wildly popular

1141
00:43:32,790 --> 00:43:29,760
and most folks have a worldview belief

1142
00:43:35,990 --> 00:43:32,800
system that's dominated either by this

1143
00:43:39,589 --> 00:43:36,000
scientific materialistic neo-darwinism

1144
00:43:42,309 --> 00:43:39,599
atheism kind of thinking or this true

1145
00:43:44,630 --> 00:43:42,319
believer religious status quo kind of

1146
00:43:47,750 --> 00:43:44,640
track and since i've come to believe and

1147
00:43:50,790 --> 00:43:47,760
understand that both are based on some

1148
00:43:53,589 --> 00:43:50,800
pretty crippling assumptions i gotta

1149
00:43:55,910 --> 00:43:53,599
accept that at best

1150
00:43:58,870 --> 00:43:55,920
people are gonna probably be confused

1151
00:44:00,870 --> 00:43:58,880
about where i stand or and this seems to

1152
00:44:03,990 --> 00:44:00,880
happen a lot as you know

1153
00:44:05,190 --> 00:44:04,000
darn right hostile to me trampling all

1154
00:44:08,470 --> 00:44:05,200
over their

1155
00:44:11,829 --> 00:44:08,480
sacred cherished beliefs about science

1156
00:44:14,710 --> 00:44:11,839
and or spirituality and that brings me

1157
00:44:17,670 --> 00:44:14,720
to the fifth and final point that you

1158
00:44:19,670 --> 00:44:17,680
should know about the skeptico show

1159
00:44:23,349 --> 00:44:19,680
and that is that the reason i do

1160
00:44:26,870 --> 00:44:23,359
skeptico is so that i can connect with

1161
00:44:29,750 --> 00:44:26,880
you so that i can create this community

1162
00:44:32,470 --> 00:44:29,760
with other people who share my beliefs

1163
00:44:34,950 --> 00:44:32,480
and interests and desire to

1164
00:44:38,230 --> 00:44:34,960
kind of figure out these problems you

1165
00:44:41,750 --> 00:44:38,240
know a long time ago the us presidential

1166
00:44:44,069 --> 00:44:41,760
first lady hillary clinton was derided

1167
00:44:46,470 --> 00:44:44,079
for saying that it takes a village to

1168
00:44:49,589 --> 00:44:46,480
raise a child well well i guess i've

1169
00:44:51,270 --> 00:44:49,599
always felt intuitively the same thing

1170
00:44:53,990 --> 00:44:51,280
about my path

1171
00:44:56,870 --> 00:44:54,000
it's going to take a village for me to

1172
00:44:59,030 --> 00:44:56,880
figure out who i really am

1173
00:45:02,069 --> 00:44:59,040
and that's why at various times in the

1174
00:45:04,069 --> 00:45:02,079
skeptico show i've tried to engage with

1175
00:45:06,630 --> 00:45:04,079
other people to either come on and guest

1176
00:45:08,309 --> 00:45:06,640
host with me or participate in other

1177
00:45:10,710 --> 00:45:08,319
ways in the show or get involved with

1178
00:45:13,750 --> 00:45:10,720
various projects i like that i think

1179
00:45:16,710 --> 00:45:13,760
that community building is a part of not

1180
00:45:20,230 --> 00:45:16,720
just the skeptic of show but part of my

1181
00:45:22,470 --> 00:45:20,240
path and what i want to do because i do

1182
00:45:24,390 --> 00:45:22,480
think it takes a village and and i'm

1183
00:45:25,750 --> 00:45:24,400
really grateful to the folks who listen

1184
00:45:28,950 --> 00:45:25,760
to the show for

1185
00:45:31,670 --> 00:45:28,960
being part of that village of mine

1186
00:45:33,750 --> 00:45:31,680
whether you like the show or sometimes

1187
00:45:36,550 --> 00:45:33,760
like the show or

1188
00:45:37,589 --> 00:45:36,560
usually almost always don't like the

1189
00:45:39,349 --> 00:45:37,599
show

1190
00:45:42,390 --> 00:45:39,359
it's still in some way that i don't

1191
00:45:45,750 --> 00:45:42,400
fully understand contributes to

1192
00:45:47,990 --> 00:45:45,760
moving this whole enterprise forward so

1193
00:45:48,870 --> 00:45:48,000
i'm not exactly sure how all this came

1194
00:45:50,630 --> 00:45:48,880
out

1195
00:45:53,030 --> 00:45:50,640
and i'm not sure if it gives you a

1196
00:45:55,589 --> 00:45:53,040
better understanding of what this show

1197
00:45:57,589 --> 00:45:55,599
was about but i hope it does and i hope

1198
00:46:00,230 --> 00:45:57,599
this show becomes something that i can

1199
00:46:01,750 --> 00:46:00,240
point people to in the future and say if

1200
00:46:02,950 --> 00:46:01,760
you're just joining this show or if

1201
00:46:05,990 --> 00:46:02,960
you've just listened to a couple

1202
00:46:10,150 --> 00:46:06,000
episodes and you're intrigued look here

1203
00:46:12,870 --> 00:46:10,160
at episode 229 and you'll get an idea of

1204
00:46:15,910 --> 00:46:12,880
where i'm coming from and why we do the

1205
00:46:17,910 --> 00:46:15,920
things we do here so with that i'd like

1206
00:46:19,910 --> 00:46:17,920
to invite you to

1207
00:46:22,950 --> 00:46:19,920
join this village join this community

1208
00:46:25,510 --> 00:46:22,960
and connect with me on any of the points

1209
00:46:27,270 --> 00:46:25,520
raised in this episode of course the

1210
00:46:29,790 --> 00:46:27,280
place to do that is at the skeptico

1211
00:46:32,150 --> 00:46:29,800
website at

1212
00:46:34,390 --> 00:46:32,160
s-k-e-p-t-i-k-o dot com where you can

1213
00:46:37,990 --> 00:46:34,400
leave me a comment about the show or

1214
00:46:40,309 --> 00:46:38,000
hopefully jump over to the new improved

1215
00:46:42,470 --> 00:46:40,319
skeptico forum and i'm gonna have a big

1216
00:46:44,390 --> 00:46:42,480
link there where you can come over and

1217
00:46:45,589 --> 00:46:44,400
join us in a conversation over there i

1218
00:46:47,510 --> 00:46:45,599
think you'll like what you'll see in the

1219
00:46:50,550 --> 00:46:47,520
new forum and if you don't like what you

1220
00:46:52,630 --> 00:46:50,560
see become a part of making it what you

1221
00:46:54,390 --> 00:46:52,640
want it to be i'm that's what it's about

1222
00:46:56,710 --> 00:46:54,400
would love to get your input and your

1223
00:46:59,670 --> 00:46:56,720
ideas for future direction we want to

1224
00:47:02,870 --> 00:46:59,680
create a place that is open to a variety

1225
00:47:05,349 --> 00:47:02,880
of viewpoints but first and foremost is

1226
00:47:07,750 --> 00:47:05,359
getting past these stuck on stupid

1227
00:47:10,150 --> 00:47:07,760
debates and getting towards the real

1228
00:47:12,470 --> 00:47:10,160
media important topics that we want to

1229
00:47:15,750 --> 00:47:12,480
talk about so join us over there and

1230
00:47:16,870 --> 00:47:15,760
become a part of making that happen

1231
00:47:19,430 --> 00:47:16,880
while you're there at the skeptical

1232
00:47:22,150 --> 00:47:19,440
website of course you can check out all

1233
00:47:24,710 --> 00:47:22,160
of our over 200 previous shows subscribe

1234
00:47:27,030 --> 00:47:24,720
to the show or join our email list to

1235
00:47:28,950 --> 00:47:27,040
get regular updates on when the show

1236
00:47:31,510 --> 00:47:28,960
comes out i have a number of interesting

1237
00:47:34,630 --> 00:47:31,520
shows coming up including a couple more

1238
00:47:36,950 --> 00:47:34,640
on this ufo extended consciousness

1239
00:47:39,190 --> 00:47:36,960
connection we have a lot more to talk

1240
00:47:40,870 --> 00:47:39,200
about there i haven't been able to be on

1241
00:47:41,990 --> 00:47:40,880
the forum quite as much as i'd like

1242
00:47:44,069 --> 00:47:42,000
because i have a number of other things

1243
00:47:46,069 --> 00:47:44,079
going on but hopefully that'll change in

1244
00:47:48,550 --> 00:47:46,079
the upcoming weeks i do appreciate you

1245
00:47:51,270 --> 00:47:48,560
listening and joining me for all of this